Love meme meta

[kate]

I believe more love in the world is a wonderful thing. There should always be more love. I generally enjoy love memes, because I like to take the opportunity to let people know how awesome they are, and yes, I like getting a little love too. But I have conflicting feelings about that (more in a minute). Also, in general, I'm of the opinion that you should let people know how awesome they are and how much you love them all the time because, well, you never know, do you? I've always thought this, since I was little, so I was the one that made my dad kiss my mom goodbye every morning when he left for work, and I was the one that started hugging in our family (we didn't before then, unless it was something really bad or really good). I try to tell all my friends and loved ones, online and in RL how much I love and appreciate them as often as I possibly can. Because more love is always better.

In fact, none of these are happy squee times. I love love memes - I do! I think they do a lot of good in the world. But I don't think they are perfect, either, and I think they cause a lot of stress for people, too, and some unhappiness (though I have absolutely no idea how to change that). Okay, so I'm going to break this up into categories because there are different issues from different angles, if that makes sense.

Nominating someone else
The issue I run into here most is that when I want to nominate someone who makes a huge difference in my life, but who doesn't have a huge circle of friends, or whose friends don't overlap such that they would see the meme, their comment just sits there with my one lonely (though heartfelt) comment. Sometimes someone else will join in, but... I wonder if it doesn't feel worse to get nommed and then only to have the one (or a few spare) comment(s)? I think that would not make me feel particularly good, or at best, maybe have mixed feelings because of the love from the one comment and then the lack of any more. I run into this often when I'm thinking of nomming people because I don't want my love to hurt them in any way.

Also, I feel like, when you're nominating someone who's really popular, no matter how sincere, it seems like a popularity play. I've nommed marina before, because she's amazing, and she always gets a bazillion comments (because she's amazing). And it always gives me the tiniest thrill to get all those replies in my inbox. Yeah, I mean every nice word I say about marina, and I didn't put the comment up because of her popularity. But I can't say that I didn't enjoy it just a little bit (and hey, there's not really anything wrong with that - but it's a factor on who I decide to nom these days).

Not to mention, those internet-popular folks are always going to get a bazillion comments, which is, well, because they're popular. And it's not that they don't deserve all that love – but again, it can make people with just a few comments (or no nom at all) feel sad or unloved, and I wish that wasn't the case, but I think we all know it is. I'm pretty confident about myself and the people who love me, and I always look at these things and wonder why I don't get forty comments the way my popular friends do.

Nominating yourself
Oh, man. I will never nominate myself. Never, ever, ever. My family has a million sayings about this, but basically, it boils down to: if you're good at something (or nice, or whatever good thing), then you don't need to toot your own horn. And this is actually hilarious, because anyone who knows me knows I am not particularly modest about my abilities or how great I think I am. But as great as I think I am, I don't actually say it out loud. At least, I try not to. Because confidence is awesome. Bragging, not so much. The problem is, there's a fine line there, and while I have these feelings about how I should behave (modestly, to a degree), I don't have them about other people – mainly because I feel like a lot of people don't think they're great. Which is so sad! YOU ARE ALL GREAT. I am not kidding, not even a little. I may not know why you in particular are great, but you are. (This is one of the reasons I LOVE love memes – I love to tell people WHY they're great, especially if I feel like they don't see it themselves.) So, anyway, no self-nomming. Not even a "I need some love, please give me some," because… I dunno. No self-nomming. I cannot make myself do it.

Being nominated
Because I cannot make myself self-nominate, I am always pins and needles about being nominated for a meme. If I don't get nommed, I'm bummed. It's… stupid. I mean, I should just nom myself! Then the "will I, won't I?" stress is out of the way. But that seems so immodest, I just… can't. This is a stupid frustrating byproduct of the way my brain works in response to love memes, and the way I deal with it is to basically drop as much love as I can on other people.

Commenting on someone you know well
This is easiest for me, because most likely, someone I know well already knows how awesome I think they are as I tell them all the time. So just dropping shorthand for "love you" in the comments says everything it needs to. jjhunter has a post about that here, about the difference between comments and kudos (which I first thought she meant on fanworks, so I answered incorrectly, but we worked it out in the end). And that's where I first noted that I might just drop a "<3" on someone I know very well and who knows very well why I love them. But for someone I don't know that well, or someone I think needs reminding of just why they are super-great-awesome, I'll write out something a little more.

Commenting on someone you don't know that well
These comments are problematic for me. Because there are people who make a difference in my life every day, whose posts I read but really have no comment for, and somehow now I've got to tell them what they mean to me, when it's mostly an intangible thing. I find these comments the toughest to write, and sometimes fail spectacularly at them. A lot of the time I will do this anonymously, because I either fear that they won't even know who I am or that they won't really understand the way in which they are important in my life. Also, I don't want to set up some expectation; I feel like if I sign my name to things, I am basically endorsing a certain level of closeness; there's a responsibility there, of sorts, and I don't want anyone assuming a level of intimacy that isn't there or feeling awkward because it seems like I feel closer to them than they are to me (or vice versa).

Commenting on someone you don't know
There are kind people who do this, and I support it because everyone deserves love, and sometimes it's the smile from a total stranger that makes all the difference, right? But I don't know that in a specific love meme, general platitudes are really going to make someone feel good, or spread any true joy. I mean, I do believe everyone deserves to be loved and everyone is great, but if I don't know why you in particular are great, does knowing that actually give you any satisfaction? I don't know if it would, for me. And while going to their journal and figuring out something nice to say is awesome and wonderful thing to do to leave a comment on a love meme, it feels weirdly dishonest to me. I have no idea why, because when someone else does it, I'm all "YAY THAT'S AWESOME YOU ARE SO COOL" but doing it myself would make me feel like a fake, even though I would probably mean what I said about them in their comment. I can't really put that together, that particular contradiction in how I feel about things.

Receiving comments
I am always grateful to receive any kind of comments, short or long, about anything. I love that people are moved to comment – that's time and effort and has definite meaning in my life, even if it's just "<3." I never know whether or not to respond. I don't, normally, because I feel kind of weird about it. I don't care if people I comment to respond, at all. If they don't, I don't think it makes any difference to me at all (and I feel the same about my comments on fanworks, actually), and isn't going to affect whether I drop a comment the next time or not. For me, I am torn, because it's hard enough even getting praise, but then having to graciously accept it is even tougher. I try, on comments on fanworks, because that's a thing I made, and I can be proud of it too! But on love memes, it's just me, and saying "thank you" to something like that feels, well, self-aggrandizing. Which is again something I can't do, because modesty. Or at least, not tooting your own horn.

That's about it, folks. I don't know that I have any answers here. Like I said – more love = good! Therefore love memes are good, and make a lot of people feel good! But there are people for whom they don't feel good, and I just wish there was some way to mitigate that. I know the words and deeds love memes helped, because it's not about who you are, but about stuff you did, which most of us seem to be able to accept compliments for. Anybody got any other bright ideas?

Comments

my own tl;dr about love memes! :D

[silverflight8]

I really like your breakdown--a lot of what you said rings true to me. I--well, I've had lovely comments on love memes but I don't participate anymore; I'd rather honestly have a conversation about Random Topic than to have someone tell me oh, I'm awesome. Mostly because in a conversation there's sort of give and take, we both enjoy it, whereas in love memes I feel like I'm requesting something and getting it and that's kind of the end, except I say thanks. And it's like--well, I have friends because I like their company, and I assume they also enjoy mine, and it's just there the love is already implicit. I like you, and that's why we're friends! Words are important but I don't like how they have to be so vocalized on love memes. I'd rather goof off in my journal ;) But I also operate on the assumption that more love = better.

I think love memes tend to work better when they are situated in communities where people already know each other. So someone hosting a love meme on their own journal, where I'm pointed to by someone who's got an intersecting circle (but I do not know the host)--I don't want to participate. It's too awkward. But when I used to do lj_support we had memes like that occasionally and it really was amazing--we all knew who each other were, we supported each other when we answered, so there was already sort of a camaraderie. Whereas on someone else's journal...it's like rushing in and spraying thanks everywhere. I don't want to devalue the compliments of a stranger. But I feel more comfortable when I can give love (heh, as if I could!) to someone who I already interact with often, you know? I feel like you do re: strangers; I definitely have a different standard for myself.

Re: my own tl;dr about love memes! :D

[kate]

I'm all for conversation myself - I love interaction! I feel like love memes serve a different purpose though - they're about expressing things that don't really fit into everyday conversations, you know? I mean, I try to fit those things into regular conversations - because more love, right? - but it's kinda hard. Love memes (at least, they seem like this to me) are about giving people an excuse to say the things that we feel but don't often know how to express, or to fit in our everyday conversations. Unfortunately, that's what makes them so difficult (if you participate).

And yeah, you have a point; love memes are always relatively localized, no matter who or what hosts, so there's a certain way they spread, which makes asking for or giving love tougher, too, if it's not your normal circle.

They're thorny, for sure. They're hard for so many people for so many reasons.

[niqaeli]

+1.

I've never managed to articulate any of my feelings, which are complicated, because they are ~complicated~ and I don't care to rain on people's parades. But they're not actually at all a happy thing, for me personally, and I pretty much try to avoid them as much as I possibly can.

(I've never, in any of the ones I've looked at, even been nominated. There's a lot of reasons for that, which have nothing to do with whether or not I am actually loved and in general I am aware of that and know a lot of people do care, but still: for my own sanity I need to not go looking and have it shoved in my face. Especially because self-nomming is not and will never happen, for many reasons, but not least because I don't need to screw my brain over the way it would if I actually self-nommed and didn't receive any comments. Which is entirely possible and, I judge, even likely.)

[kate]

I can totally understand wanting to avoid them - god, the brain weasels, man.

The reason I want them to work is because I want to tell people I love them! Like, I have issues with nomming myself and receiving compliments (I think all people do, or most of us, anyway), but I really, really, really want to tell people how much I love them, and it's not something I can just generally slip into conversation, you know? So the reason I like them is because I love to tell people how great they are. The reason they're problematic is because I know how hard it is for so many people - to take compliments, to put themselves out there to receive them, and then there's those who have to deal with the disappointment of not receiving love, or receiving less than others, or not receiving it from the people you really want or or or or...

It's tough, man, so tough.

And I want to say here (because I can) that I have been reading your recent posts with interest (particularly the swimming ones - I love swimming) and I haven't been commenting because I don't really have anything to say in response to them. But I read and enjoy them. So if you get comments from me going forward that just say <3, that's shorthand for this, yeah?

[niqaeli]

I certainly see the appeal on all sides! It just... does not work for my brain, therefore I avoid.

<3 (and similar, ala +1 or *kudos* or whatever) is always a valid response and I totally get it!

And, thank you! I totally get where you're enjoying posts or whatever but don't really have anything to say in response, so it's nice to hear that you are enjoying them! I mean, the funny thing for me is a huge part of why I've been making them as opposed to the ongoing dead silence is that they're not something I'm invested in getting a response from folks. Of course, it's netting me more response and interaction/community than, you know, the dead silence had been!

<3

[clavally]

I've decided over the years that I really have no interest in love memes. They feel very awkward to me, which just makes me feel anxious. It seems like there's obligation on all sides and that makes the whole thing a bit more shallow, or at least feel shallow, even if the commenters are trying to convey something deeper.

[kate]

<3333

Yeah, there is a lot of that, for sure. I still like them, because I really love the opportunity to spew love over the folks I love. I am generally lovey anyway, so it's easy for me to just throw in hearts and stuff in conversation with you in chat (and write you fic because you totally inspire me), but there are some people I love that are tougher to do that to, you know? And I love to do that. <3

[umbo]

I don't have any ideas, but I wanted to say that I read this and could totally get what you were saying. I tend not to participate in love memes at all, partly for some of the reasons you give, and partly because the people participating tend not to be in my corner of DW much, if at all.

[kate]

Thanks! There's a lot of stuff with love memes, you know? They're thorny, troublesome things, even when the intentions are good (which I really do believe they are on most). On top of all the stuff here, there's the fact that it's really hard for people to accept love, too, you know? There's a lot of difficulty with the things, I just wish I could make them work for more people, because I really want to spread as much love in the world as humanly possible.

[jjhunter]

Ooo, you posted it! I was hoping you would get around to this eventually; thank you so much for sharing your thoughts here. Two followup questions for you, as I'm mulling over my own responses (you've touched on so much here, and it deserves more than just having the equivalent of large hearts drawn all over it, though that too):

1.) do you find all these issues arise equally for all love memes regardless of format, or do some love meme formats make certain issues more or less problematic for you? (Am thinking especially of 'Words and Deeds' format vs run-of-the-mill, but am curious in general as well); and

2.) would you be comfortable with this post being linked on the Love, Pride, and Ambiguity - Recommended Readings post?

[kate]

<3333333!!!

Thank you, love. I would love any further observations you have (and there's lots of really great stuff in the comments too)! Re: your questions:

1. I think the words and deeds is less problematic for people in accepting compliments, and possibly self-nomming, but I think there're still issues for people who don't get as much love for their stuff as other folks, and I still have issues (or maybe more, even) nomming people for those, especially if I just sort of love them but don't know their output particularly well (even just their posts, etc, not necessarily fannish or blogging output)? And I wonder if there are even MORE popularity issues there? I mean, popular authors and artists already get lots of hits and kudos and comments, and this is just another opportunity to tell them? I dunno, I dunno - these issues are tough things, and I wish I had better answers to the issues and questions.

2. Yeah, totes, go for it! :D

[azurelunatic]

Words and deeds is sometimes stressful because figuring out where my "every time I see your username I sort of smile a bit because I have a general good impression of you" comes from is hard work, and so is picking out specific things about someone I know very well and like a lot. It's very nice to get specific things and I see why it makes sense, but requiring specificity is definitely a barrier to my contribution.

[jjhunter]

Important to know, and thank you for sharing.

What you're saying re: 'picking out specific things about someone I know very well and like a lot' being hard work reminds me very much, in a roundabout way, of the conversation kate and I had which she linked in the post here, namely as kate wrote,

there are people for whom they already know just how much I love them and why and everything, that <3 is enough, I think, because, they already know. It's just a placeholder for all my feels.

Something I've been wondering (and wishing I had more time this fall, geez) is whether the words & deeds love meme or another format might be less stressful if it were more frequent - if there was less a sense of 'how can I possibly sum up all feels about this person in one comment (!)' because $thing happens rarely and more of a 'checking in with what's been noticed / appreciated about what I've been doing lately and voicing what I notice / appreciate about others as I've got spoons' -type vibe.

(While I'm at it - "every time I see your username I sort of smile a bit because I have a general good impression of you" is the kind of comment that would totally make my day if I received it on such a meme. There's an emotional specificity to it that gives it weight, if that makes any sense outside my head.)

[ar]

I'm always torn about love memes. They're embarrassing for me to take part in, for a couple of different reasons:

1. I have to nominate myself, and that goes against my upbringing (both RL and internet--before coming to DW, the general belief among my circle of acquaintances was that love memes were circlejerks best left alone), even if it does fit well with my natural tendency to showboat and fish for compliments.

2. I often get one or two comments at most, which makes me feel shitty. (Especially when the person hosting it is someone who's on my flist/knows who I am/whatever and doesn't leave me a comment. That feels especially shitty.) (This is all mitigated by the knowledge that I'm pretty quiet on DW, especially these days, and wouldn't want the huge flists and scrutiny that go along with having lots of people to drop me compliments, though.)

3. When I get a drive-by random person leaving ~love~ because no one's commented to me, it usually feels facetious and shallow. The worst was when I'd basically said "I could use this because I'm having a tough time," and I got a drive-by comment that was literally "Love to ar who's having a tough time." It was ten times worse than getting no comments, because it felt like I was supposed to be really grateful to someone for noticing my ~plight~, but there wasn't anything even remotely personal about c/ping my problems back at me. I was furious and embarrassed that I'd apparently looked like such a loser that someone decided they'd comment to me, but I hadn't looked enough like a human being that I deserved so much as a "hang in there, I'll have you in my prayers/thoughts/whatever."

On the other hand, when one receives a real compliment, one that actually relates to who you are and what you think and do, that's an amazing feeling. And when I give in and post on yet another love meme, it's in hopes that someone browsing the comments will have one of those for me. I save those for bad days and reread them as necessary.

I'm inclined to say love memes are neutral at best. Even if they're really good for some people, they can turn bad, too--the wank I've seen start over them can be pretty ugly. When commenting to other people, I think the most important thing is to say something specific and concrete, even if it's a small thing. With people one knows well, my favourite thing to do is to come up with something nice they've said or done in the last few months.

[kate]

Yeah, you have valid points, all - and that's why I'm always nervous about nomming people - I've done it for people before and then watched as no one else dropped a comment, which, :((((((((((

I am so sorry. :( Man, until I started getting comments on this meta, I was still of the opinion that love memes were brilliant things, you know? Flawed, yes, but still of the good. Now I believe they're of good intentions, but perhaps do more harm than good, which makes me sad. All I want to do is spread more love and joy in the universe, and at face value, it really feels like love memes should do that. It's strange and sad that they seem to do the exact opposite for so many people.

I've never seen wank, thankfully, but I can be pretty thick about that sort of stuff, so I probably just missed it.

[azurelunatic]

Getting a comment from someone who is commenting to everyone sometimes sets off my "what noooo did you not see the headphones and book noooo go awaaaaaay" spiky introvert thing. Which feels silly, because if I didn't want interaction what am I doing here, but it is a thing that has happened.

Just knowing that a space has participants who will make an effort to contact everybody regardless of their connection (either pre-existing or newly discovered) can put me off participating. "Wow your icon is awesome" or "I just checked out your journal and I really liked that thing you posted" feels like genuine connection; "you are here and I am here and I will tick you off my list" is interaction I cringe from.

[busaikko]

I avoid love memes, because most of the time they make me feel unloved* (I should add that I used to check every one that crossed my flist a couple years ago; I don't pay attention to them now). They work really, really well for people who are very social: who link to their thread on their LJ/DW/Twitter, who comment and nominate all their friends, who know the right things to say, and - most of all - who have friends who are the same way and will nominate them back and comment, etc.

Love memes remind me of being picked last in gym class or thinking someone was a really good friend and them turning out not to be... and it makes me feel inadequate in replying to other people's threads because I usually only say "You're awesome!" instead of going on for paragraphs, and then there's the fear that I'll reply to A and B but not C and then C will be hurt.... And then if you're not nominated, but comment on a bunch of threads, and someone posts an "oh yeah, her!" thread, should you be grateful? Or worry that people will think you were just commenting because you're too passive-aggressive to nom yourself? Big ball of anxiety, there!

What works best for me are discussions like these, when someone posts meta and interesting comments are made, and people (politely) agree and disagree and share with each other. That feeling of connection with others and of communication is what makes me feel loved without any anxious pressure, if that makes any sense? I know what to say to people when there's a topic! (I'm the person who always drops in to leave a quick comment, and ends up with 5 paragraphs. And a footnote >.< )

* Which of course I know is not true! I have so many wonderful friends in fandom, and I know they love me as much as I love them. We just express our love in non-lovememe ways.

[kate]

Man, this discussion is wearing me out a bit, so hopefully I'll come back and say more about your comment, because you hit on a few more items that can be problematic (that anxiety about who you're commenting (and not commenting) on as well as the kudos vs comment version of the argument), but I just want to say: I love you to death (which I'm pretty sure you know) and you're one of those folks that I just adore so much but don't often have the opportunity to tell how absolutely terrific I think you are. And you should be told ALL THE TIME. Because you are amazing.

And I am with you - I really do live by the "always more love" rule, and I try to slip it in everywhere, because it's never a bad time to tell someone you love them. And I love great conversation and debate too, so I'll always love your paragraphs and footnotes, too. <3333

[busaikko]

I have a collection of love anthems, and my current one is Hold on when you get love by Stars, which I like to play loud *g* And I want to make a John Sheppard vid to it... I really don't think I would have been in fandom this long without all the love and caring energy of the people I've met. Beautiful, wonderful, talented people with generous hearts. *hands you the Valentine of Awkwardness, runs away*

I feel bad that I contributed to making your comments a place where maybe people won't feel comfortable talking about why love memes do work for them >.< I think if you can get into the positive feedback loop it must be awesome, like getting a hug over the internet.

[kate]

Love anthems! I love that idea! :D :D :D

<333333 So here is where I admit that I adore swkwardness and awkward people more than regular people - because they just tend to be my folks, you know? I am more likely to sit down to lunch with a loner I've never met than with a group of people that I vaguely know but who are waving me over. Well, there's a group thing there, too, but. I love your awkward Valentine.

No no, it's all good. This is meant to be a place where people can say whatever they want! I think the people for whom love memes work don't really need a place to discuss why they work; they can just keep going on and doing the love memes, you know? The whole point of the post is how to mitigate the bad feelings it brings to people who might want to participate but can't because brains, or upbringing, or whatever. <333

[omens]

These are all great thoughts! I also brought the hugging to my family (although I am majorly out of practise these days - shame!) and I do try to express love more freely these days... but I am too awkward for love memes. :P

[kate]

I don't know if it's you that is too awkward for love memes, or if love memes themselves are awkward; there are so many issues about so many aspects of them! They're thorny and difficult and that's just not what they're supposed to be about. But keep on trucking! More love - always more love.

[athenaborozon]

Hola,

I love your work, I love your posts, I love you!

Athena

[kate]

Aw, thank you very much! And I love you too. <333

[grammarwoman]

You'll always be a BNF to me. :D

Love memes are awkward for me, too. I never get nominated, and I don't want to nominated myself, not for the matter of putting myself out there (though maybe there is a measure of that?), but because I can't see getting many, or any, comments, which would be very depressing.

I used to visit them and scroll through to leave comments for people; now I just sigh and move on, because what difference does my comment make, versus how much time it takes to decide which of the familiar names I should comment on?

I appreciate the sharing of love, because heavens know we all could use a ton of it, but...imperfect world and brains and UGH MONDAY.

*hugs* Just so this isn't a total downer ending.

[kate]

Ahahaha, those are three initials I would never think of in relation to myself. <333

Yeah, the lack of comments is the tough thing for a lot of people, I think. I don't know that there's any way to mitigate that, though man, I have never seen anyone try harder than jjhunter who is about the kindest, most compassionate and thoughtful human being I've ever met (for the internet value of "met"). Still, it's tough, and will always be, I think - there are people who have a tough time nomming, people who have a tough time commenting, it's all tough.

<33333 *hugs* for you too, love.