Grammar tip of the day

[kate]

Because I use these A LOT in my technical writing, thought it might be useful for others out there.

i.e. = "that is" (or, "in other words")
e.g. = "for example"

Memory trick: Imagine that i.e. means “in essence,” and e.g. sounds like "egg sample."

Also, since I'm thinking of it, American dialogue attribution punctuation/capitalization, which only has a few variations but is something people get endlessly wrong. (For American English, punctuation is always within the quotes. Commas before attribution (she said), periods before non-attribution (actions other than saying, asking, exclaiming, etc.).)

"I say," she said.
"I say!" she exclaimed.
"I say?" she asked.
"I say," she said, "this is ridiculous."
"I say." She turned to me and stuck her tongue out. "This is ridiculous."

Comments

[curiouscorvid]

Thank you! I actually wasn't sure at all about some of that, although I felt the comma should be cradled within the quotations. :D

[kate]

You're welcome! That was brought to you by the fact that my sister, who I would've thought knew better, didn't, and had all her punctuation/capitalization wrong. D:

[flo_nelja]

Thank you!
You say "in American English", is this different in English from England, or are you just not sure?

[angrboda]

Wondering this as well.

I've always put it inside the quotations, because although 'I say," he said.' is technically only one sentence, it feels a bit like two and the quotations are part of the first sentence. (This makes total sense in my head!)

[kate]

No, that makes sense. UK English has different rules about the punctuation, I just don't know them well enough to put them out there like I did for American English.

ETA: But china_shop explains below. It's only quotes where the writer is quoting someone else's statement, not dialogue (and that was my understanding as well, I just wasn't confident enough to put it in writing).

[kate]

UK English does have different rules, one of which is that their punctuation is sometimes outside the quotation marks (but I don't know the rules for that - I might be able to parse them when reading UK stuff, but I don't notice them to be able to outline them like the American English).

ETA: But china_shop explains below. It's only quotes where the writer is quoting someone else's statement, not dialogue (and that was my understanding as well, I just wasn't confident enough to put it in writing).

[spikedluv]

Thanks for that tip. I believe I have been using eg and ie interchangeably.

[kate]

I used i.e. as "for example" for years. When I found out it was really e.g., I was able to remember that part of it, but never what i.e. was supposed to be. I found that tip today when I was looking it up, and was thrilled with it.

[china_shop]

Your examples are all correct in UK and NZ English, afaik. The area where we differ is with quoted material. In NZ (and, I believe, UK) English, you only put punctuation that is part of the original quote inside the quotation marks.

He described the monster as "slimy, not gooey"; we agreed.

Whereas I believe in US English it would be

He described the monster as "slimy, not gooey;" we agreed.

I don't know if US English distinguishes between

He said it was "gross!" and He said it was "gross"!

To me, in the latter the exclamation mark is reacting to his statement, not to the grossness of it.

[kate]

Thank you! That was totally my understanding as well (the quoting-other-people-meaning-punctuation-is-outside-the-quotes thing), but I didn't want to say for sure because i wasn't confident.

I read the difference between those two sentences similarly to you, but in American English, the only "correct" way would be to have the exclamation point inside the quotes. That said, because I understand the difference, I have actually used the UK/NZ version before, even though it'd be wrong by American English rules. (I do that a fair amount, I find, if something makes sense to me - e.g. not necessarily using the direct address comma if it screws up the way the statement sounds when I'm reading it).

[china_shop]

but in American English, the only "correct" way would be to have the exclamation point inside the quotes.

Would that also be true for a question mark?

I've grown used to putting full-stops and commas inside the quotes, but I struggled a bit before I acquiesced to my beta's recommendation that a semi-colon should be inside, and I'd baulk entirely at a question mark. It changes the meaning!

[kate]

Yeah, unfortunately, according to American English, all punctuation must be inside the quotes. That said, I flagrantly ignore that when it suits me (like when it changes the meaning of the thing) and I think a lot of people (especially fiction writers) do as well.

[auburn]

I think a big stumbling point between American and other accepted punctuation is the difference between 'quotes' and "double quotes" as used for dialogue. I read UK books that are type set using just 'quotes' for dialogue, and it's just as easy to follow, but I like the "double quotes" used in the US, it avoids confusion with the apostrophe. I'm probably more sensitive to it as a fiction reader, since fiction has a lot more dialogue.

"He said it was 'gross!', not me," she said. "I don't think it's gross at all. I like it."

Instead of:

'He said it was 'gross'! not me,' she said.

If the exclamation point is outside the quotes, then it's modifying everything before it and not just the quote. I don't know if that's the grammar rule, but that's how I remember which way it works.

I'm forever going to use 'egg sample' to remember e.g. anyway. I love little memory tricks like that.

[kate]

Ah - yeah, I totally do the single quotes thing to try and differentiate, too. Or just fuck the rules, because that's what fic is all about amirite?

I love little memory tricks like that tooooooooo!

Hihihihi! <3

[msilverstar]

I've actually taken to removing i.e. and e.g. from my writing, as they are obscure enough to confuse readers without formal education in English grammar, and ESL. I don't want to force them to stop and figure out what is going on, it screws up the flow of the information. So now I just use "for example", and "that is," which are not as nice but easier for many people.

[kate]

That is super smart. And I should probably do it, except my boss is always riding me on how my SOPs don't sound formal enough. (Hilariously, she used i.e. incorrectly.)