Characterization, what is that?

[kate]

Leaving for Massachusetts tomorrow so I need to get all my work done today, but of course, I've got things on the brain. So, dwircle, let's chat about characterization.
I ask because I've got to write an AU fic that I owe for an auction. And I was thinking of possible things for John Sheppard to do, because the person wants a complete AU. And the thing is, I love complete AUs and there are a number of them on my SGA McShep comfort recs list, but there's a couple similarities to most of them.

One, Rodney is usually a physics professor or a physicist. Sometimes he's a professor of other things other than physics, sometimes he's another kind of scientist, but it's a pretty common thread to Rodney characterization. Now, there are AUs where he's a writer and an accountant and an inventor (But Wait, There's More! series by lavvyan, OMG), but that's the thing about Rodney. He's pretty recognizable as anything as long as you make him smart, competent, arrogant, and bad with people. There are varying degrees on all those things (and to make a sympathetic character, you have to play on the smart/competent part and also show that he has a heart and that he can grow (when SGA was good, they did this well - when not, welllllll...)), but Rodney's pretty easy to pick out, whether he's a cat or an ice cube. I don't worry about his characterization because I think there's plenty out there to make him recognizable, no matter what profession he's in.

Two, John is usually ex-military or current military or ROTC or a pilot. Do y'all see that as a sort of inherent part of his characterization? I mean, I get that, and it's not that I don't write the hell out of that when I write canon (and some AUs, too). But without it, is he still John Sheppard?

Especially the flying thing - can you imagine a John Sheppard that doesn't fly*? The thing is, I have a couple of AU John Sheppards that just can't have had the military background - it's not possible for that to have happened for where he got today. In one of them he's a pilot anyway (recreational); in another, his profession is analogous to the flying. In the one I'm contemplating right now, though, he'd just be a normal guy that went to college to do something he loves and now he's doing it.

There are other things that make him John Sheppard. I think there are themes that come out in any portrayal of him. A partial list:

~He's a fuck-up (to varying degrees - and usually for a noble cause).
~He's smarter than your average bear human, though he's usually lackadaisical about it.
~He's special in some way (usually this relates to the ATA gene; sometimes it's skipped altogether).
~He has family troubles, and by extension most fics about him tend to include families of choice, whether it's a conscious theme or not.
~He is able to make the hard choices, and he is able to sacrifice (himself especially) - this can be missing in a lot of fics (especially AUs of this type because they just don't require the kind of situation that makes this characterization come to the fore - and it's only every spottily displayed in the canon).

And then we get into parts of his characterization that I find interesting. He has a couple of modes of operating, and some people tend to pick one end of the spectrum and stick with it. Other people make him as fluid as the show itself does (which is probably bad writing on the SGA writers' part, but it offers a lot of variety).

~He sometimes acts like a twelve year old (when he's happy or annoyed) and sometimes acts like he's responsible for the world (when there is something on the line - usually other people). This is interesting because if you take either side of this equation to the extreme, you get what I would think of as a remarkably OOC John Sheppard, but a little of either side (or a fairly large helping of both) and you get what I sort of think of as quintessential John Sheppard.
~He can seem remarkably well-adjusted, but it's made clear to us in canon that he isn't. How well-adjusted he is in fic varies wildly.
~He can be charming, but he is reticent about having real conversations. These two are not mutually exclusive to me, but I often see one side played up and the other side played down, in both directions.
~He seems to have an ease with casual relationships yet he never sees it coming (and in later seasons seems almost asexual (though this could be the stress of his life/job as military commander of Atlantis) and he has been married). There are several parts of this that are often used to show that John is in fact gay (a fair interpretation, I think, though not the only one). Characterization runs the gamut on this, from asexual to ladykiller to super-romantic to just bad with people he cares about. Honestly, as long as the rest of the puzzle that is John Sheppard fits together and the author sells me on his sexuality/relationship tendencies, this part doesn't bother me much.

There are others I'm missing in this section, I just can't think of them right now. I find this section is the reason that John Sheppard is so wildly diverse in fic; there is just a lot of leeway, and a dearth of information about his background, so we're freer to fill in the lines with whatever cocktail of John Sheppard traits we like.

Do you have a particular John Sheppard recipe? I can look at that laundry list and tell you what dials I turned up to 11 and what items I toned down for any given story of mine (and most of them are different from one another). I can also look at that and tell you THIS is why I'm having trouble feeling John Sheppard in Impromptu (and gives me a nice, easy way to go back through and strengthen his characterization, yay). John is not a given for me; his characterization is all over the place. Rodney is more stable but not completely unchanging. There are aspects of his personality that I will highlight that aren't always what most people think of as typical characterization. I'm curious if you have multiple John Sheppards or just one, and how you came to your current ideal, if it's just the one.

Also, since I'm thinking about how to make this AU work so I can get this auction fic off my plate, if John isn't military (present or past) or a pilot, what would you need to be sure it's him? Not just the hair and the drawl, but the John Sheppard cocktail. If he has a family of choice and has adrenaline-junkie hobbies, sleeps with a lot of people but doesn't get attached to any of them, is charming and laid-back except when you want to have a conversation about him, would that be enough to make it really feel like him? Does he also have to be a twelve year old about things that get him excited and have a heroic streak a mile wide, even for complete strangers? Am I missing some vital part of John Sheppard that would make him seem OOC for you?

*Though I think that for all the initial super-pilot stuff they pushed on us in the beginning about Sheppard, that's not what he's really about. A lot of early fanon characterization was built on this because it was pushed pretty hard in the first season, but it dropped away pretty quickly when it became apparent that he wasn't going to save the day by flying shit all the time. You get the feel in Rising that Sheppard would have done anything to keep flying, but once he has Atlantis, that feeling goes away. And interestingly, later characterizations do tend to shift that impulse - the characterization of 'John Sheppard will do anything to fly' became 'John Sheppard will do anything for Atlantis.' So I think, while I said flying up there, what I really meant was his raison d'être - at first, flying, then Atlantis, and maybe mixed in with Atlantis, his family of choice (team and/or Atlantis personnel as a whole). Back to top.

Comments

[mecurtin]

I think I have to see his dorky side for me to believe it's Sheppard. Interestingly, in Harlequin-type stories where Sheppard is The Guy, this part is almost always left out, so the characterization feels flat and OOC.

If he doesn't fly, he has to do something that gives him, hm, an adrenaline-fueled sense of peace. In a couple stories it's riding a bike, which I believe. Climbing would be another thing, or certain kinds of music. Horse riding -- any kind of vehicle or conveyance, really.

Here's the core: John loves activities where you push really, really hard and fast, and then there's a moment when you cut free (mentally, emotionally, physically) and glide on high and untrammeled. That, for him, is the core experience of life.

[kate]

I love the dorky part of Sheppard too, and overly-serious fics (unless the situation demands serious Sheppard for the duration) feel OOC to me too.

It's interesting that's the spin you put on the flying; I can totally see that (and I know I've read some fantastic fics that characterize him that way), but it's not my go-to rationalization with the flying (I think melannen hits more on the reasoning for me below, with flying = becoming free of whatever is holding him back and Atlantis = the thing that is home that doesn't hold him back). It makes perfect sense, though, and interestingly, for NC17 stuff, I can totally see that characterization with regard to kinkiness (and thus why sub!John makes sense to me but top!John less sense (and when top!John works for me, it draws from the more serious side of his characterization)).

And for all that - I still do usually replace flying with racecars, bungee-jumping, horse riding, things that are exactly what you describe above.

[melannen]

My John Sheppard is heavily influenced by the first few seasons, because I only watched patchily after that.

That said:

The flying/Atlantis thing is the core of my characterization of him. I don't know that I find an AU Sheppard without either to be OOC exactly, but I generally don't find him interesting without either of those. (If there's other stuff that's going on that I would find interesting even in original fic I might still like it, but not because it's an SGA AU.)

That said, it doesn't have to be flying-as-flying or Atlantis-as-Atlantis. I connect them both to a Sheppard who has never felt grounded, who has always wanted to escape from everything including himself, who has never felt like any place on Earth was home. Flying gives him that escape; Atlantis gives him a home he doesn't need to escape from. If you replace "flying" and "Atlantis" with other things that mean "escape" and "home at last" it will probably still read as a Sheppard story to me.

There are other things that go into it to - I ship John/His Issues (whatever is it about him that made him feel out-of-place so long; that can vary by the fic but the effect is usually the same.) He's a very private person, or at least one who is used to keeping everything wrapped up inside, which is why there's so little we know about him, and a large part of his everyday personality is a front to fit in, but when he does choose to let something out he can be surprisingly open, and he is at heart a doofus. (An AU!John who has already found his Atlantis can be a lot more well-adjusted than this, but in that case I want to see the doofy side a lot more, too.)

Which is to say - I pretty much agree with everything you said but I emphasize certain parts a bit more.

Also: I think of Atlantis as one of the show's characters. So if you have an AU with John and Rodney and Teyla and Ronon and Elizabeth and Sam and Woolsey and Lorne and Zelenka and Keller and everybody but you don't have someone or something which stands in for Atlantis I feel like you've left out one of the main characters for no reason.

[kate]

Yes, exactly! You have hit upon what the flying/Atlantis thing is for me. Definitely.

Actually, though I don't mind more variety in John than you do (or the flying/Atlantis thing toned down, though, obvs, the family of choice aspect of it (which is part of the Atlantis side) is key for me), you've totally hit things on the head with regard to the way I look at him. The flying/Atlantis dichotomy makes so much sense - and the more well-adjusted John needing to be dorkier, too.

I have to say that as much as I really love Atlantis-as-a-character fics, I don't see Atlantis as necessary in my fic (reading or writing) and tend to think of Atlantis (in AUs) as the thing that threads them together (in cesare's Foster bakery AU, it's the bakery; in my Impromptu 'verse, it's the music), and not necessarily a character that's instantly recognizable. I think, though, that I'll start looking at that closer. I was rereading Pru's Boom Boom Room the other day, and the most notable thing to me was that John and Rodney were the only Lanteans there (and there was absolutely nothing representative of Atlantis, in either of our ways of thinking of it). I know some people like that. I'm more of the mind that I want to populate places with the characters and see what happens; soleta gets bothered by that because she can't imagine such various people ending up in the same place if it's not Atlantis. *shrug* This stuff is endlessly fascinating for me.

[trobadora]

*ponders* For me, the bit that few stories manage to truly nail is Sheppard's dark edge. I find most stories either overplay or erase it, but it's pretty fundamental to my understanding of his character.

[kate]

It is for me in canon, definitely, and anywhere he's got a military background (and I think that's why it's such a common thread to AUs, even complete AUs).

But in something like my diner fic, I don't know that John would've necessarily developed the dark edge, not in that way. I tend to think it's a combination of being able to make (and having to make) the hard choices and having the training to do so. Take out the truly hard choices and the training, and you... well, make him a little more average, I guess. At least in my reading of him. Hm. Will have to think on this more - something is niggling at me about it.

[beadslut]

I do have one thing. He's not about "things". His personal possessions on Atlantis appear to be that Cash poster and War and Peace.

I don't think the pilot/military thing is necessary, but the ability to do one thing extraordinarily well is.

[kate]

Mmm, do you have a competence kink? Because I do, so my characterization always includes that (because the only characters I'm attracted to writing are competent, you know?).

And definitely true - the man is not about "stuff."

[mrshamill]

I wanted to reply to this after I got back from the pshrink's office (I had lots to say about John's penchant for self-loathing, which we see in a couple of eps and which Cate I think caught beautifully in the Finn stories) but, well, I just got back from the pshrink's office and I'm shrunk. To about two millimeters. Sorry.

[kate]

<333333

I agree - there are definitely self-loathing tendencies, and I tend to pick those up myself, in my characterization (has to do with the nature of the fuck-up, I think). Any more thoughts when you're feeling less shrunk always welcome. *hugs*

[quinfirefrorefiddle]

In regards to the whole seeking freedom through flying or whatever, thing, I think that part of his backstory has to be that he was once under someone else's control- and he thought that was the way things were supposed to be, for awhile, and then he realized he hated it, and then he realized it didn't have to be that way. In canon it's his dad trying to make him inherit the company (or however that worked, I haven't actually seen Outcast or really any episodes after the first two seasons, I'm working from meta and fic here)- he's a kid, he thinks his dad must be right because he's his dad, he grows up and realizes he doesn't want to do that, he realizes he doesn't have to, and he screams a lot at his dad and joins the AF.

After that, everything falls into place. The flying, or whatever takes its place, is sort of a reenactment of his freeing himself from the prison he was in or the pattern he thought he was locked into. He has trouble trusting other people because he's always worried they'll want to make his decisions for him (and notice how he hates that in canon and in fic- which makes him the kind of soldier who only follows COs who have earned his trust, which gets him in trouble). He creates his own quirky family of fairly odd people because he loves breaking patterns, now that he can, and he is all about helping other people to break out of theirs (taking Rodney on a hike, for example). He depends on himself because he trusts himself- he got himself out of whatever it was, and therefore he can do whatever this is.

Breaking free was his character-defining moment, perhaps his first truly autonomous decision as an adult, and it informs everything after that. He likes being good at math but he doesn't base his ego on it, and he likes breaking patterns so he's a guy who both surfs and goes to scifi conventions. (And I think that when he does have a dorky/scifi side, that's often the thing that was his mini-rebellion, as a kid, and helped him prepare to finally break free later, and taught him at a very young age that he was okay with being different, which is why he doesn't have a problem with it now.)

[kate]

Hm, you've taken a decidedly different spin on him than I have, though I get some of the rebellion, definitely. Outcast was pretty vague about stuff, as I recall, but I haven't seen it in a while.

I have to say I find it really interesting, the things people pick up about Sheppard's characterization. I mean, you have a compelling argument (like Dora does above), but it's not what I see right off. Fascinating how many things he pings in people. I guess this is why Shep is so popular. :)

So - what about an AU Sheppard, can you imagine him without flying? What part of the narrative with breaking free is the thing that speaks to you, and how do you think that translates into, say, the accountant AU?

[cesare]

he loves breaking patterns, now that he can, and he is all about helping other people to break out of theirs (taking Rodney on a hike, for example)

This really articulates something I felt about John but hadn't nailed down for myself in any coherent way. It's awesome to see it spelled out so well. Thank you!

[monanotlisa]

Do y'all see that as a sort of inherent part of his characterization? I mean, I get that, and it's not that I don't write the hell out of that when I write canon (and some AUs, too). But without it, is he still John Sheppard?

In my head (or possibly heart), the life John leads on Atlantis is his baseline, the ultimate benchmark. I'm not sure if it's just the fact I'm a fan who loves the show but even more so loves John Sheppard the character as portrayed on screen, but deep down I can't help but assume that, for John at least, this is the best of all possible worlds -- fucked-up as this undoubtedly is in many ways. Any alternate universe version of him is a deviation.

'course, I love deviations, and deviants! So that's not saying much. ;)

I've also written a drabble set precisely on this theme, so I too have given it some thought. It's interesting to re-read, actually; after this comment has been typed out, I'll upload them to the AO3...and resist the urge to tinker with them again.

Do y'all see that as a sort of inherent part of his characterization? I mean, I get that, and it's not that I don't write the hell out of that when I write canon (and some AUs, too). But without it, is he still John Sheppard?

The writers' characterisation of John Sheppard has always been haphazard, to put it mildly, and it doesn't -- well, it does! -- help that Joe Flanigan, God bless his lumberjack shirts, took his cues and ran into the exact opposite corner with them half the time. The few elements that have been reiterated and make sense thus tend to stick, and this one more than the rest, you're right. At the same time, is it essential? I think not (with the above caveat), but then again I AUs are a passion of mine precisely for the creativity and canon-affinity authors can actually show through a completely different setting.

Someone else has linked to The Giant McShep AU List, right? A few of them are favourites of mine, and not in a Hey-As-AUs-They're-Great way but as fantastic fanfiction getting John Sheppard.

Do you have a particular John Sheppard recipe? I can look at that laundry list and tell you what dials I turned up to 11 and what items I toned down for any given story of mine (and most of them are different from one another).

This depends more on the concept of writing than on John Sheppard, maybe? I don't tend to write like this but merely envision the character doing things, talking (God, my fics: always so talky, even the SGA ones), although just like you, my John shifts with the story, tone and tale, as obliging as he would be with any alien princess dragging him off to her bedchamber...

Am I missing some vital part of John Sheppard that would make him seem OOC for you?

Some writers will spend a million days writing John Sheppard, and he will never ring true to me, not even a little, but you're not among them. I think writing John (as opposed to writing Rodney; like all of us, my inner Rodney voice always audible when I listen in) requires not so much work as a patience and a rewatch? Before writing fanfic, I tend to watch episodes that feature the core character or pairing I write about, and that allows me to pick up on a million half-remembered and now re-visualised elements.

[kate]

This depends more on the concept of writing than on John Sheppard, maybe? I don't tend to write like this but merely envision the character doing things, talking

Actually, I don't think about it when I'm writing - it's only after the fact where I can look at something and say, 'oh, huh, that's what I was going for there.' I rewatched some episodes recently - first time in a couple of years - and realized there was stuff I couldn't watch outright anymore; fandom has ruined me for the canon.

In general, there's a Sheppard in the back of my mind, no matter what story I'm telling. He's just there, doing what he's doing, and if he loses the way, I have to go back and see where that happened and see if I can figure out why. The thing I was thinking about this morning is that with the AU I want to write (the fluffiest, most innocuous AU in the history of the universe), it hit me that not only did I have absolutely no source of conflict, I wasn't really sure how to make Sheppard seem like Sheppard if he wasn't military, a pilot, and was mostly well-adjusted. I mean, I'll probably just sit down and write the thing and see how it goes, but. I dunno. It's interesting, and it's been an interesting chat with everyone, that's for sure. :D

[kate]

Okay, now that I've read (and loved) your drabbles, I find that I glossed over something I found fascinating yesterday, but didn't have time to address: deep down I can't help but assume that, for John at least, this is the best of all possible worlds. I... don't have that. I think of John in canon as our starting place, the benchmark, definitely, but I think there are a lot of places out there where John would be better off, happier, more successful, more peaceful, whatever. I think John in Atlantis is interesting (and perhaps one of the *most* interesting Johns), but I wouldn't say, for me, he's the best. Actually, I'd probably say there isn't a best, for me; each life is different, but also valuable and interesting and brings something to the table about him, even the fluffy, innocuous AU I'm contemplating. There's something more about this that I'm missing. I think perhaps a contemplation of why certain people are drawn more to fanon or AUs (or both) and why some canons (and characters) are really suited to AUs and some are not (I'm writing my first AU for Alexander fandom, and I've made it canon, instead of just writing an AU (long story). It just doesn't seem like they're good for AUs, the history is so much a part of who they are). I know someone posted an essay about this once; I'm going to have to see if I can track it down.

[sholio]

I really like your point about Sheppard having continuums to his characterization, and different writers dialing up one end or other of the spectrum. That's a good reflection of what I've seen in both the fic and the show, and also why some writers' versions of Sheppard work for me and others don't. I think you're right that Sheppard doesn't really have a fixed and indelible characterization in the same way that Rodney does, and the contradictory mix of traits is a big part of what makes him Sheppard for me. I don't think he reads correctly as Sheppard if all the bits aren't in there -- I'm as put off by a Sheppard characterization that doesn't include his dorky side as one that doesn't acknowledge his pricklier parts.

Having said that, my own characterization of him was very fluid over the early seasons. Specifically, I think in retrospect that I tended to downplay both his dark edge and his insecurities. Especially the latter -- up until season three or four, I'd generally seen and written Sheppard as fairly comfortable in his own skin, and the Sheppard-as-a-seething-mass-of-insecurities thing was something that I'd seen as fanon woobification. Until canon made it impossible to ignore, that is. *g* Same with the darker side, which I had mostly seen as a situational thing in the first couple of seasons; he fights because it's his job and to protect people, but it's not something that I had seen as really being a part of him, any more than any soldier or cop or anyone else in an occupation of that nature. I'd always considered dark!Sheppard stories as fairly OOC and antithetical to the way I saw the character. It was Miller's Crossing that changed my mind on that, and ... I don't know, I found it harder to like the character after that episode and in light of certain later developments (like the way he shuts out Teyla when she's off the team). I think Sheppard, increasingly as the seasons go on, is a guy who gives off a very strong feeling of "us" and "them" mentality, and having seen it in later seasons, I can see it in earlier seasons as well, like his refusal to help Teyla save her friends in "Letters From Pegasus" or the way he's willing to risk the lives of everyone on the Daedalus to get Ronon back in "Sateda". I think this made it a little more difficult for me to write the character (because I was used to writing him in a certain way, and I no longer see him in that way), and made it suddenly harder for me to read a lot of authors that I used to like, because now I need to have that darkness acknowledged and included in order for the character to read as Sheppard to me.

[kate]

Oh, that's... yes. I saw the darkness pretty clear as early as season one (putting up the shield in The Storm and killing those 50 men), so Miller's Crossing just really vindicated me (I'd had arguments with people that he wasn't a hard man, a cold man, that he was a big ole softie - and I do think he's a big ole softie, too, but that doesn't mean he isn't a killer, and that he won't kill especially anyone threatening one of his own - though it's interesting that while we both attribute that to his job, I feel it's also a part of himself). I generally block out the way he treats Teyla in season 4, it makes me so sad. And even though I thought Sheppard had an innate darkness to him, I never wrote it, not until much later. There's more to be thought on there, will have to ruminate on that during the drive tomorrow.

You know, the thing that I find most interesting about Shep's characterization is that you can, with canon, justify any old thing. From off-his-rocker dark (I'm writing that) to utter dork to devoted to his chosen family to a complete romantic and every combination therein. And I've seen people argue about things (god, the Last Author Standing comms, have you read any of that? if it's not dark and tragic, it's OOC, like, hello, SGA was a comedy half the time, geez) that they are utterly convinced of. Even though whatever characterization anyone comes up with, I can come up with a canon moment that shows the exact opposite characterization. I mean, I'd have to rewatch to find some of them, but I'm betting I could do it.

When it comes down to it, for me as a reader, I need to be sold. I'll buy almost any characterization if it's sold to me. The only ones that read 'off' are those where the author contradicts themself or doesn't give a solid basis for the characterization.

This was a really insightful comment - thank you for that. :D

[busaikko]

I think for me I can roll with a bunch of Sheppard characterizations, but I'd say being an introvert (and shy) defines him a lot. He isn't good with words or feelings, but he has a lot of coping mechanisms and scripts that he uses for work and for recreation (stereotypical guy-stuff like watching football, comics, dorky TV shows). He's very good at becoming physically competent and learning physical skills (running, sparring, freeclimbing, surfing, shooting, flying, etc.) and I think he thinks that should be enough (I have a feeling that in his marriage, he'd keep the drains clean and the lawn mowed but never say "I love you"... er. I may have written that fic.) He doesn't need stuff because what he carries with him is what he can *do*. (And I say this as an tongue-tied shy introvert who thinks that the day I stop learning new stuff is the day I die, so, um, *hands you a big grain of salt*)

So I don't see that his control issues (need for competency) are necessarily a result of being traumatized; it could simply be that he knows he sucks at feelings, but mastery of skills is something he excels at. And from there, you can extrapolate that it's not that he necessarily wants to sacrifice himself, but he is aware that he's the best (most competent) person for the job (though Ronon's not afraid to call him on that and say "you don't need to do everything yourself").

Someone had a theory that I read somewhere that John's just really not that introspective: he doesn't talk about feelings because he's just not that full of them. Not shallow, but more WYSIWYG. I thought that was an interesting (and possible) interpretation.

[quinfirefrorefiddle]

So in terms of the Five Love Languages, the one he speaks the best is Acts of Service? I can see that.

[kate]

Interesting - I can totally see Sheppard as an introvert, but you know what, that's not set in stone for me. I could write him as an extrovert, I think. I also would have never picked up on that particular bit of his characterization, but it does make sense of the conflicting superficial charm/inability to have a conversation about feelings thing (which is a favorite of mine, as John characterizations go). The things people see in their characterizations, where they come from - it's all fascinating, I tell you. I was waiting for your comment, I was wondering what makes John characterization for you.

I love that theory, man. I could totally buy into that theory, actually. I write him that way sometimes, even.

[cesare]

he has a lot of coping mechanisms and scripts that he uses for work and for recreation (stereotypical guy-stuff like watching football, comics, dorky TV shows)

I definitely see that in John, and I think J-Flan sometimes played it that way. In "The Last Man" after finding out how things went to shit without him, and Rodney dedicated 25 years to get him back, John's dialogue just before going into stasis is "In the past twenty five years, did you happen to notice who won the Superbowl? Stanley Cup? World Series?" And J-Flan says those lines with such a look on his face, like he's just got no idea what to say in the face of everything Rodney's told him, so he's following some kind of regular guy script in his head and trying to make the words mean something else. Rodney says he doesn't know, and John says "Right. Had to ask." in a tone more suited to a funeral than a question about sports.

It's one of my favorite of J-Flan's many offbeat line readings.

I also think that J-Flan's choice to drink his family's beer, Budweiser, as John's beer of choice contributes to this interpretation of John, since you'd think a guy who grew up that rich wouldn't pick a cheap beer unless he was following a script, trying to fit in, trying to project an image of a regular guy.

[torachan]

This post and the comments were really fun to read. I have to admit, I don't actually think about characterisation at all when writing. I just...write. And hope that it works for other people, too. :p

[kate]

Ahaha, yeah, I don't normally think about it either! But I also don't normally brainstorm the way I did about this particular AU, so it's been a weird sort of process for me overall. Generally I just sit down and write, and if John feels right, he feels right. If he doesn't, I have to go back and see where he did something OOC and fix it (but even then I don't generally think about his motivations or personality or anything). I just fix it, and finish writing it. For me, generally, the analysis is completely separate from the writing (and mostly after the fact).

[mific]

Really enjoying this discussion.
I think you can make a case for Sheppard having a 'false self', stemming from his messed-up childhood and/or adolescence. Depends when you want to imagine he lost his mother, who isn't mentioned in canon really. If he lost her early he's going to potentially have some quite dysfunctional defences and maybe have a veneer of coping when things are good, that can fall apart to soem degree when bad stuff happens. If he lost her later, say early teens which seems to be fairly popular in canon (and had a good r/ship before then), he might be less fundamentally fucked-up but with some neurotic oedipal issues and issues about losing people he loves, worsened by his father's attidue to him (invalidation, trying to force him into the company, not seeing who John really was).
The seriously messed-up Sheppard would have the potential to appear highish-functioning, and to have learned to behave that way as that's what people around him want and what gets him what he wants, but internally to be pretty mistrustful of close relationships, and to tip over into paranoid projection when stressed. I'd see him as being pretty schizoid and avoidant in close relationships. He'd dislike himself and be insecure, fundamentally, while maintaining the false social self which would alter depending on what the person he was with wanted him to be (like sports and Bud with the guys).
Even if you buy the above (and I don't know that I do, although it makes a nicely dark AU), I would still see his physical and military competence as a core redeeming and mitigating feature and as a positive defining factor in his sense of self. Without it I really think he'd fall apart into self-destructiveness or despair. He might have been attracted to the military for some messed-up reasons (outlet for rage, acting out via risk-taking in fighter jets, giving Dad the finger) but the structure of the military probably 'held' and helped him to a degree, despite the need to repress aspects of his character. And again, the need for a false self for the military, and another for Nancy (which didn't work), and another on Atlantis at first when he's thrust into being military commander and literally has to fake it. I think we see him growing once in Atlantis - his 'specialness' to the city would have boosted his self-esteem, and then there are the developing real relationships esp. with his team - the real 'reparenting' experience for him that allows him to become more integrated and whole. I don't think the writers really followed this through at all consistently of course, as they needed him to go on being the slightly mysterious loner/hero who never gets the girl, for the purposes of maintaining the series. They do show his developing closeness to the team especially, although I think his relationship with Elizabeth is more neurotic - a mix of idealisation and treating her as another authority to rebel against. Teyla is the real Mom for him (with interesting oedipal hints of attraction there of course, huh, wonder if his reaction to her pregnancy could be read as sibling rivalry? *g*), and Rodney and Ronon are the brothers he never had (yeah, us slashers all write incest-fic!), given the fucked-up real relationship with Dave. Interestingly, the older male figures are all negative like his real father - Sumner he rebels against then has to kill (oedipus!) and Kolya is perpetually the bad father - controlling and sadistic. Woolsey isn't portrayed as strong enough to be a real father figure although he's definitely benign. I like good fic where Woolsey has that role more for John - a good-father, reparenting figure, like in 'Slide'.
Oh - the flying. Re all the above, I'd see it both as a (mostly functional) escapist defence against the bad stuff, and as a real competence that helps hold him together as a person. He probably sublimates repressed sexuality into the rush of flying, and it would express his need to rebel and get free from controlling authority figures. His dorkiness/nerdiness is also a more functional defence - a small rebellion against his Dad's conservatism which becomes a real part of his core self (humour, quirkiness, competitive games).
And now I'll shut up with the psychobabble!

[kate]

OOh, fascinating deconstruction of Sheppard there!

Even if you buy the above (and I don't know that I do, although it makes a nicely dark AU)

Actually, that's the read I get on canon itself sometimes, and some dark canon stories. And I like it and can buy it, too - I think there's enough support in canon for it.

Interestingly, though, my AUs are generally not dark. AUs are my ridiculous, fluffy, happy place, and thus I think why I put so much stress on the military and his choices being the reason he's dark-ish in canon. I can see the other interpretation, but for AUs I don't want to (for the most part). Interesting.

I think his relationship with Elizabeth is more neurotic - a mix of idealisation and treating her as another authority to rebel against. Teyla is the real Mom for him (with interesting oedipal hints of attraction there of course, huh, wonder if his reaction to her pregnancy could be read as sibling rivalry?

Oh, you REALLY hit on some of my issues with John and women here, you pretty much explain my reaction to Elizabeth and why John/Elizabeth just really doesn't work for me; there's such a maternal vibe to the way they interact that it squicks me out. Not all the time - the rewatching I did made it obvious where John/Elizabeth shippers draw their inspiration, so that was kind of nice to see (even though it's still not going to be my ship). For Teyla (and this is because of the nature of my own familial setup), I've always thought of her as the older sister, guiding and kind and seeing through his bullshit, but never really having to be the authority figure (that was on Elizabeth). I always read the kiss between John and Teyla as being completely separate from their friendship. The virus was making him more animalistic and Teyla is an attractive woman, one John has feelings for. Not being able to separate platonic love from physical attraction feels like it's an issue of the virus, not some long-held back longing for Teyla (which is never really indicated in any other situation, that I saw in my rewatch, anyway). And that bit about sibling rivalry for how he treats her during her pregnancy? I think that's genius, and even though it's probably not what the writers were going for, I think it really does explain his bizarre behavior.

Oh - the flying. Re all the above, I'd see it both as a (mostly functional) escapist defence against the bad stuff

Ah, interesting. I think, if I had gone beyond my initial analysis of 'John loves flying. It's part of who he is,' this is the explanation I would have come out of it with.

and as a real competence that helps hold him together as a person. He probably sublimates repressed sexuality into the rush of flying

And both of these read as absolutely true to me too, though I wouldn't have thought of them.

it would express his need to rebel and get free from controlling authority figures

This one never occurs to me, and always makes me look sideways at things. I can get it, I mean, I can objectively see where it's coming from, but it doesn't resonate with me for some reason (even though clearly Sheppard has a problem with authority figures). I'm guessing that's just my personal bias coming in there, something I'm lacking in experience for, so there's nothing for the idea to resonate with.

I love your psychobabble, feel free to come on over and do it any time!

Also, on a complete tangent: I've been listening to a bunch of podfics lately, and I have to say that several of your readings are on my faves list. I'm going to do a rec set soon and you will most definitely be on there. :D

Another thought

[tetsubinatu.livejournal.com]

Having read quite a bit about the education of gifted children over the past few years, something that struck me about John was that he concealed his intelligence in order to fit in. I remember reading that a child who does this can seem to 'have it all' - popularity and success - but they themselves know that the person who is popular is not them - it's a construct. They fear that if they were actually known for who they really are they would be disliked, but they've hidden who they are so successfully that no-one can ever get to know and like the real person!

On Atlantis the scientists - and Rodney in particular - validate John's intelligence, a key part of the real self he hides.

Re: Another thought

[kate]

...

That's. Um. Really disturbing.

This is very personal, so, uh, if you don't want to read beyond here, I totally get it.

I'm adopted. And I've spent a lot of time reading about adoptees and the nature of their relationships and how they deal with the world and blah blah blah, but the thing is... I've always felt that the person I am is constructed. I've only told this to two people, and they never understood, so I never brought it up again. I've come to think of the construction as basically me; being the sum of your choices, as it were. But it is still a construction, and sometimes I worry that if I peeled it all back and found whatever was beneath it all (no idea what this is anymore, it's been completely buried), that no one would ever like me. That no one could ever like me, because even my own mother didn't. It's not rational, I know that, and I've developed my coping mechanisms (which work remarkably well), but then every once in a while, something just hits me to the core, like this.

I'd love to get the name of that book, if you remember. I would very much like to read it, because I have never shared that construct idea with anyone, and it has felt like I am very alone in that. It would help to have validation.