Fandom Snowflake Challenge #3

[kate]

Okay, hear me out…

I know Snowflake is sunshine and rainbows and singing from the rooftops all the lovely and brilliant that is being in a fandom. But, let’s be honest. Sometimes--like with other things--there are sucky parts, heartbreak parts and just plain UGH parts. Rather than holding onto those slights and resentments, or burying them and pretending they don’t exist, just to have them slowly and almost imperceptibly seep into the rest of the challenges this month, why don’t we just let it all out?

For those of us who celebrate Festivus for the rest of us, this will be familiar. We call it “Airing of Grievances” and it is actually very satisfying, whether you do it tongue in cheek, get introspective or just literally scream.

In your own space, Scream Into the Void. Get it all out.

Okay, so my first thought with this was my frustration with antis. Then I just. Did not want to even deal with the exhaustion that brings.

So the next bit was my feelings about podfic permission requesting. I push for blanket permission/transformative works statements because it is a bandaid that helps people who really need those BP statements to feel comfortable recording and have some barrier to asking. But it IS just a bandaid.

Listen, I just do not understand how people can make transformative works and then be all precious about other people making transformative works about their transformative works. Like... YOU just did this without asking anybody at all. Why do *I* have to ask permission?

Especially in the case of podfic, because it is also an accessibility aid! You don't listen to podfic? SO WHAT. It's not ABOUT you. It is about a) the podficcer, because they were SO DELIGHTED with your work that it inspired them to create another work about your work (and if you don't think that podfic transforms the original text THEN DON'T EVEN FUCKING TALK TO ME) and b) the people who DO listen to (or NEED) podfic. Would you say no to art because you don't like art? OF COURSE YOU WOULD NOT.

Everyone says "Ooh, I'd love fanart, I don't care if you think it's terrible I want it!" and they're soooooooo flattered someone would want to make fanart. It's a compliment. TREAT PODFIC THE SAME FUCKING WAY, PLEASE. It is a compliment. If someone is inspired, they should just be able to do it. Why is this so hard to understand?

This is an exceptionally frustrating thing for me, that people who make transformative works are not fully supportive of people making transformative works of their stuff. You know what we think of authors who do that? Yeah. That's what I think about fanworks creators that don't allow podfic.

For those who don't like podfic but feel bad because they're not going to listen to it to comment, you do not need to listen to it to say, "this is so awesome my fic inspired something like this! thank you so much for making it!" and calling it a day. Podficcers know that not everyone listens to podfic. They get it. Just say THANK YOU and MOVE ON.

*breathes hard*

*steps off soapbox*

Thank you, and have a nice day.

Comments

[misbegotten]

Bravo! Bravo!

[kate]

♥

[starandrea]

This is an exceptionally frustrating thing for me, that people who make transformative works are not fully supportive of people making transformative works of their stuff.

YES ♥ Fully agree with all of this!!

[kate]

♥

[corvidology]

I've had a blanket statement for years - I think there used to be a masterlist on Fanlore?

I've been podficced twice - ooh missus! -- and it wasn't painful at all.

The only thing my blanket statement isn't, well, 'blanket' about is having my story credited and not wanting people to remix my story and/or write a prequel/sequel for it... but I'm beginning to rethink that last part as well.

[kate]

Yeah, I understand that - it's a natural reaction, really, to want to preserve your stories and their surrounds. But I alwayss go back to the same thing. I don't think too highly of authors who look down on transformative works (someone liked something they wrote enough to want to interact with it, I don't see how there's anything bad there?), and I had to take a long hard look at it and realize that the same thing is true of my own stuff. I may not love everything someone would produce in relation to my work, but I don't have to interact. And what a massive compliment, in the end!

[rodo]

I think it's about the difference between transformative works and derivative works - but I also think fandom really loves putting the transformative label on a lot of things that aren't (including some fic) - and I don't get why people get so precious about what others do with their own fic either, when they're already using somebody else's IP without permission. I get wanting attribution, but with podfic, I don't think I've ever seen anybody not link/acknowledge the original author.

[kate]

*treads cautiously*

So, I don't really think there is a difference between transformative works and derivative works. All works are more or less derivative. There's nothing new under the sun, we all stand on the shoulders of giants, etc.

Everyone who does something with another's work is adding to it in some way, which makes it transformative. Translation and podfic in particular get this argument a lot, but man, there is nothing more difficult than to translate something into another language, it is a feat of artistic and linguistic craftsmanship. And podfic is similar. Even just two people reading it will have two different interpretations, and that says nothing of the actual performance, editing, music or sound effects...

Pretty much I feel like any work that isn't plagiarism is transformative in some way, and deserves to have the same rights as any other transformative work.

[elwinfortuna]

I hear you! I've had a permission statement up for years, and people have done all kinds of nifty stuff with my works, translating them, podficcing them, writing the occasional spinoff or sequel or whatnot. Not all of it is to my taste, but I'm incredibly flattered that someone cared enough about my work to do that!

[kate]

Yes, exactly! I am certain that my style of podfic is not to everyone's taste, but if I choose to podfic something it's because I love it. It's basically a rec x100, because it takes so much effort and time to podfic something.

[runpunkrun]

This is the reason why I went from being squirrelly about giving permission for transformative works (in the pre-AO3 days) to just throwing the door wide open. Plus giving blanket permission is easier for me in that I don't have to deal with the social requirements of considering each request.

Also I'm realizing I might need to do a better job of leaving a comment when someone makes a podfic out of my work. I feel like maybe I've been forgetting to do that, or putting it off for "after I listen to it" which, let's be real, doesn't always happen.

[kate]

Exactly! BP is a boon to anyone who has social anxiety - author or podficcer!

I wouldn't worry about comments, truly. If you have BP, podficcers are just sending you lots of love, and it's fine if you can't interact. I used to be the same about listening to podfics first, but I have so little time now, if I do anything at all, it's a thank you, and then if I have more after I do actually listen, I might come back, but it's certainly not required at all - not even the thank you. The BP is really thank you enough. ♥

[recessional]

Listen, I just do not understand how people can make transformative works and then be all precious about other people making transformative works about their transformative works. Like... YOU just did this without asking anybody at all. Why do *I* have to ask permission?

Thiiiiiiis. Like look I care exactly this far: I will be pissed if you take my ACTUAL WORDS and say YOU WROTE THEM. Everything else, like . . . . have at? Have fun? It's nice if you let me know but also ngl I may not do anything with this knowledge if it's not something I'm into/I'm not up to being Social about things? FFS.

[kate]

EXACTLY.

Plagiarism is bad. If it's not plagiarism? It's transformative, have at.

And truly, I don't think anyone doing transformative works of fanworks have expectation that the authors of things they transformed interact? Certainly myself and most of the podficcers I know have zero expectation of authors coming to check stuff out, so if they do, it's just a nice bonus. I would assume it's the same for people who write remixes or sequels or whatnot. Thanks for the compliment, enjoy yourself, that's pretty much it.

[quailmail]

To be honest I'm pretty new to the concept of podfic and transformative works statements, so when I first set up a statement I said to ask for permission for podfic and translation because...?

I actually didn't know why. I think my initial logic was "I guess it's kind of like reposting but in a different format?" — which is wildly dismissive of the time and effort that goes into creating those kinds of works. And I should know better! I've done translations in the past and it's tough, even for short writings! I imagine it's the same for podfic.

Anyway, this is just a long-winded way to say thank-you for your soapbox. It actually made me put some thought into my transformative works statement and permissions, instead of just copying what I'd seen other people do.

Hope you have a nice day too!

[kate]

Thank you so much for the time you put into thinking about this. I see this argument a lot - an off the cuff of "I wrote this thing, reading it out loud isn't valuable/transformative etc." I get that; especially because in the professional world, the IP for an audiobook still belongs to the author! So it's a natural extension of the thought process.

But only reading it aloud, without any editing, is roughly 1 hour per 10k words, and then there's editing, perhaps music and/or sound effects. Plus packaging and posting, and HOSTING because AO3 does not host audio files... it's A LOT. The absolute lack of regard for podfic (and translation is just as bad, if in a different way) is common, and almost blase at this point.

So thank you VERY much for taking the time to read and reconsider your position. It gives me hope that others who perhaps don't really understand the issue will see something that sparks their thoughts in a similar way. ♥

[obstinatecondolement]

This is a great post! I totally agree. It is beyond bizarre to me when people who write fic based on other people's copyrighted work suddenly feel entitled to policing how people engage with their work when it comes to transformative works. I think I didn't have a blanket permission statement at first because it didn't occur to me that people would need to ask? Also, like, there are fics that are only still available online because they have been recorded by podficcers, so it's important fandom archival work as well. I guess if people want to disown their work then this gets complicated by there being podfics out there attributing it to them, but like... at that point I still feel like the lesser evil is preserving the work.

[kate]

Oh man, I think I was the same at first! Like, what is this permission thing, who needs permission to do stuff to a thing I posted publicly on the internet????

You are right - there are absolutely fics online that are gone except for the podfics. That is a sticky bit of business, if the author deletes. But honestly, I think it's probably okay. I know that I made some podfics of a friend of mine's stuff who then deleted her account, and I didn't even think about deleting the podfic. But finding her through my podfic would be difficult because I don't name check her in the title (some podficcers do this, which I understand, but I don't specifically because of this), and my link to the original work is broken (I did delete the connection after she deleted). So yeah, it'd be pretty tough to find her stuff through my podfic, and it lives to be a record of stories that are truly truly amazing.

[peaked]

I always feel like it's a huge honour to have any of my stories turned into podfic or even translated. I didn't even realise that having it done was a big thing (like... I thought it happened all the time lol) until last year after I had a couple of stories engaged with in this manner and learned that not everyone has their work turned into audio. It's super cool!

Thank you for mentioning what to say if you're not going to listen to the podfic, because I never know what I should say when someone does follow through and podfic my work. (I can't listen to it if it's mine for confidence reasons that I want to work through, but I never want the podficcer to think I don't appreciate it and I want to support them.)

[kate]

It is a huge honor! Truly, I consider it a super-high recommendation of your work if someone takes the time to podfic or translate it. That is a hell of a lot of time and effort to create one of those things, so we only do it for stories we love.

You're welcome! You also don't even have to comment - if you have BP, most podficcers take BP as a sort of preemptive thank you. But if you want to comment, that text up there will get smiley faces from most podficcers I know.

I also would recommend listening to it. For real - ESPECIALLY if you have confidence issues. Because a) the podficcer is reading it BECAUSE THEY LOVE IT (and you can definitely hear that) and b) it is truly one of the most amazing things to hear your written words read by someone else. You won't have time to think about your writing flaws because just hearing it in someone else's voice is a TRIP, man, it's absolutely bonkers (even better if they have a different accent to you). I have a podfic of a work in progress from my buddy Jellyfishfire, and the stupid story is one I have been working on for YEARS and I swear it will probably never be finished, but her podfic is AMAZING. Truly. She sees so much more in my story than I ever could.

So do yourself a favor and listen to someone who loves your work tell you a story. ♥

[clavally]

THIS. I honestly didn't think much about blanket permission until you were talking about it once, but once I thought about it it was a no-brainer. I'd LOVE if someone liked my work enough to podfic it or do art of it. I don't understand people who don't want it!

[kate]

Yeah, the most common arguments against podfic are:

a) I don't listen to podfic (that's too bad for you but also... don't you want to get to readers who wouldn't be able to read your story otherwise?)

b) Who would want to record my stuff? It feels too self-aggrandizing. (Uh, well, without BP you'll never know, will you?)

c) (this is an old one, I haven't seen it much, but way back in SGA apparently it was a thing) Reading someone else's story out loud is weird and creepy. (WTAF? Have you never heard of AUDIOBOOKS? Also IT. IS. AN. ACCESSIBILITY. ISSUE.)

People are weird, man, I don't get it. But also - I think a lot of people, when they think about "transformative works" broadly, are thinking of sequels, prequels, remixes etc., where it's very possible someone takes an aspect of your story and does something with it that you don't like. (This can happen in podfic too, I actually have a thought that it would be HILARIOUS to read a story in the absolute wrong genre - can you imagine a romance read as a horror story, with sound effects and creepy music? IMAGINE TWILIGHT.) But the point of it is - once it's out there, you no longer HAVE control of something, just like the original authors don't. And think about how much we as a fandom spit on Anne Rice's grave and just... don't be like Anne Rice? I don't know, seems pretty basic to me.

[silveradept]

I have had podfic done and all of them were lovely and enjoyable! What I want to know is where they are when they're done so I can listen or promote them.

About the only time I might get salty about it is if someone recorded something they claimed was podfic but turned out to be something else, or intended to mock me as a creator, but they're going to do it anyway, and it's not like I can do much to stop them.

[kate]

Absolutely! I always want to link up my works with podficcers or translators or whomever, but honestly, I think any podficcer would be HORRIFIED to consider posting without naming and linking the author. Similarly for translations, I've always seen that they get linked back.

I'm sure there are those who don't but I tell you what, that is the danger of posting things on the internet. Same thing about people being mean. There are communities out there for posting fic and skewering it. Not my bag, but I guess. If I post it on the internet, then they can do whatever they want with it.

But truly, I think most of fandom is out there being excited about stuff and creating more good stuff, and most of them are doing it with all intentions of crediting the original source of the material (similar to the way fanfic credits its source material).

[bardsley]

I find it flattering if someone makes a podfic of something that I wrote. I don't always have the spoons to thank them though.

[kate]

Absolutely! It is 100% a full-throated recommendation of your story. And no thanks are necessary, truly. BP is often considered preemptive thanks, I don't think most podficcers would take not getting a comment from the author as any kind of slight. ♥

[bethctg]

I hope this changes some minds. It's such a kindness to shy people (like me!). I've had to ask for permission before, and it took a lot out of me. *g* Plus, I kind of feel like it might give the author an expectation for a finished product when you're really just wanting to try it out.

[kate]

Exactly! I've been left hanging for MONTHS after asking permission. I have a friend who was told off for it! Like, this is absolutely BONKERS. Podfic is a GIFT, I do not understand thinking otherwise.

And why deal with all that (and the social interaction on the author's side!) when you can just post a BP and be done with it!

But truly, the idea that permission is even necessary is the one that really gets my goat. It's NOT necessary. Some day, probably after I retire, I am probably going to make an inflammatory podfic of some story of an author who doesn't allow podfic and post and link it, and just see what they do. They have ZERO claim for me to take it down. It's a transformative work. The AO3 lawyers would be on MY side. I just want to have that fight, you know? Get it out there in the open. At this point people don't even think about it on this level, and that's what's frustrating.

[lightbird]

For some reason, a lot of people in fandom very specifically don't appreciate podfic, and I'm not sure what that's about. I do admittedly have a personal preference for reading the written word, so I've never made the shift to audiobooks, but I love that podfic exists and there are some absolutely wonderful performers out there. And I was honored when someone gifted me with a podfic of one of my very own fics.

[kate]

I mean... I get it. I didn't listen to podfic or audiobooks until I started doing long drives. I think a lot of people have trouble just... listening to something. It doesn't take up all your attention the way reading a fic does. So I think most of the people I know use it during times they're semi-preoccupied doing other things, like driving, chores, crafting etc. *shrug*

I get that but what I don't get is being churlish about it. I don't read comics but I'm not shitty about them, you know? They're just not my things. And if someone made me a comic of one of my stories, I WOULD BE THRILLED. Because OMG SOMEONE MADE SOMETHING OUT OF A WORK OF MINE.

But there's always places in fandom that don't seem to figure that out. Whether it's newbies or just thoughtless, I mostly hope they'll either come to a place of "it's not for me, but it's still awesome!" or learn to appreciate it themselves. Like honestly, some of the podfics I've heard are just INCREDIBLE works of art. I can't imagine getting one from Jellyfishfire and not because absolutely thrilled with the production quality.

[silverflight8]

The rise of antis feels like a terrible collision of the increasing mainstreaming of fandom, the pendulum swinging towards more Puritanism, and it's terrible.

[kate]

It really, really is. :(

[evilinsanemonkey]

I'm a podficcer and I always forget to check for blanket statements so I usually wind up asking anyway. I haven't run into anyone saying no yet (and hopefully never will). I love the communal nature of creation in fandom. The way fanons interact with canon, how people are inspired by each other and excited about it, etc...

Podfic is just Another Important Part of That

[kate]

I'm glad to hear you've been lucky about the people you've asked! I usually don't have too much trouble myself, though I ran into some tight spots with turnaround on my podcast with Jelly and Voiceteam.

I also believe that podfic is an important part of fandom, but clearly not everyone does. This isn't so much a rant about BP or asking but rather that we need to ask at all. I truly, truly believe we shouldn't have to. Period. Like, to the point that I'm tempted to stop asking and just do it. It's aggressive and annoying and not my typical style at all, but it's such a mistaken way of thinking that I can't help wanting to do something drastic.

[rekishi]

I generally agree with all you say, but I just want to also say this: Until two years ago, when I started with snowflake, I did not even know about permissions and all that. I spent a decade or more in a fandom bubble of mostly two people, I honestly just assumed people...podficced (or made art) for whatever they liked. (I'm not into podfic, I'm not into podcasts or audiobooks or anything like that, this has nothing to do with podfic specifically, I just don't process audio like that.)

So I agree with you totally that not permitting podfic (as opposed to saying "please don't write prequels/sequel because I might be doing that") is very weird for all the reasons you point out. But people not having a policy/BP is more likely just lack of knowledge.

[kate]

Yeah, the BP thing I find is definitely a lack of knowledge. But the whole point is that BP shouldn't be necessary. Podfic is a transformative work. Just like fic is a transformative work. The author didn't ask permission to write the fic. Why does the podficcer have to ask permission to make the podfic?

And to be honest, those sequels/prequels/etc. are in a similar boat. As soon as a work is put out on the internet, it's fair game for transformative works. Any transformative works. The author doesn't have to like it, and they can ask people not to (it is worth it to put a BP up if that's how an author feels because most of fandom will abide by it, I think), but technically, they don't really have any more rights to deny fanfic of their fanfic than the author/creator of the property they wrote fanfic about did. So. Yeah. That's the whole argument right there.

[enkalenk]

totally agree, podfic makes things a lot more accessible and adds more atmosphere than a computer reader (I do find Edge has a larger selection of reading voices and pronunciations aren't as jarringly awkward as with FireFox Reader but nothing beats a good podfic). Blanket statements are great because it's one less anxiety for people to deal with.

That said, I do get weary when people transform something of mine and add in things that aren't there before. Like tons of ableism or ableist language which is why I changed my BP to state that I will not link back to any transformations including that. People can still do what they will, but I won't link back or rec it.

[kate]

Yeah, apparently there was an argument in circles I'm not part of that said basically that robotic reading of text was just the same as podfic and just discounted all of the effort and artistic merit that podficcers put into it. Really glad that bit of discourse skipped me.

I am so sorry to hear you've had ableist transformative works of your works. That sucks! I absolutely think not linking or reccing their stuff is the right call.

[eoa]

Podfic, especially, seems like such a strange thing not to permit as it doesn't change the work in any way. Well, I understand that occasionally minor tweaks might have to be made for a work to be podficable (make it a word, I can't find a better one, so go along with it xD); but those don't change the story or the meaning of the story.

ETA: Forgot to add; love the text change for the reply button, lol. A small thing, but it still made me smile :D

[kate]

I would be careful with that argument. I know you didn't mean it like this, but it reads a little bit like "the podficcer doesn't add anything to the original work" which veers toward the idea that it isn't transformative.

Podficcing does actually add a lot to the text, in terms of voice, pacing, sometimes even subtext. But I am assuming you meant that for the most part, podficcers don't change the words.

But even so - if someone remixes a story, or writes a missing scene, prequel, sequel, etc., it's still transformative and has the same rights as any transformative work. It's the whole concept that is hypocritical. Fanfic writers are creating transformative works off of properties of other creators with no permission, no request, nothing. They're free to do it. To then try to act like they have some sort of control over transformative works of their works is the height of hypocrisy.

[jesse_the_k]

You are entirely correct!

Thank you! I'm someone who loves podfic for long journeys as well as a comfy alternative to eyeballs.

One terrible year with bad brain insomnia a skilled podficcer saved my sanity.

[kate]

:D Thank you!

Yeah, there are some occasions for which podfic is a great boon (or audiobooks, same kind of deal). Glad you had them for comfort!